Phonetic Survey of Kyrgyz Dialects - Revision history

Firespeaker: /* Library access */

2020-10-02T17:04:15Z

Library access

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:04, 2 October 2020
Line 103:		Line 103:
	I headed out a little discouraged, only to find Thatcher running up the stairs as the Guardian of the Stairwell shouted after him. I told him it was time to go, and we headed back down the stairs and dealt with the guardlady. After what amounted to apologising for "misunderstanding" her waving her arms at Thatcher, I turned in my daypass in exchange for my passport, and we headed out. We'd just made it out the door when a girl ran out of the library and introduced herself to me. I'd noticed her sitting right by the desk where I'd asked about these resources on Kyrgyz dialects, and she, along with everyone else in that room, had been paying very close attention as I talked with the librarian. She explained to me that the librarians at this library didn't like to go digging in the archives to get books out for people—even for her, who frequently managed to convince them to—and that I'd have better luck at the Academy of Sciences. She offered to take me there and help me find what I was after, and mentioned that she knew some other sources I could look for, since she'd taken a class on Kyrgyz dialects. I made sure Thatcher could find his way back to my place, and headed off with her to the Academy of Sciences.		I headed out a little discouraged, only to find Thatcher running up the stairs as the Guardian of the Stairwell shouted after him. I told him it was time to go, and we headed back down the stairs and dealt with the guardlady. After what amounted to apologising for "misunderstanding" her waving her arms at Thatcher, I turned in my daypass in exchange for my passport, and we headed out. We'd just made it out the door when a girl ran out of the library and introduced herself to me. I'd noticed her sitting right by the desk where I'd asked about these resources on Kyrgyz dialects, and she, along with everyone else in that room, had been paying very close attention as I talked with the librarian. She explained to me that the librarians at this library didn't like to go digging in the archives to get books out for people—even for her, who frequently managed to convince them to—and that I'd have better luck at the Academy of Sciences. She offered to take me there and help me find what I was after, and mentioned that she knew some other sources I could look for, since she'd taken a class on Kyrgyz dialects. I made sure Thatcher could find his way back to my place, and headed off with her to the Academy of Sciences.

	After alternatingly waiting for and not managing to catch trolleybuses and [[w:Marshrutka\|marshrutkas]], we ended up just walking. It was cold, and maybe a little snowy, and at a pace I didn't set (much slower), we got there in a little over half an hour, but talked the whole way. It turned out that they were closing right as we got there, so we headed back the direction we'd come. We stopped outside the National University (I didn't know it yet, but she lived near there) and talked for a good long while before parting ways to head home. Shortly after that we met a few times and talked about language and other such things, and she lent me her notes and other materials from her Kyrgyz dialectology class to copy. We ended up going out for Valentine's day ((the fact that we met up on Valentine's day was an accident: "You free this week? Cool, is Wednesday good? Sure, Thursday's fine."), and started meeting on a more regular basis around then. By the end of May we were officially a couple, and a year and a half after that (including many months apart and a separate trip to Kyrgyzstan to visit her) she was able to make it to America and we got married.		After alternatingly waiting for and not managing to catch trolleybuses and [[w:Marshrutka\|marshrutkas]], we ended up just walking. It was cold, and maybe a little snowy, and at a pace I didn't set (much slower), we got there in a little over half an hour, but talked the whole way. It turned out that they were closing right as we got there, so we headed back the direction we'd come. We stopped outside the National University (I didn't know it yet, but she lived near there) and talked for a good long while before parting ways to head home. Shortly after that we met a few times and talked about language and other such things, and she lent me her notes and other materials from her Kyrgyz dialectology class to copy. We ended up going out for Valentine's day (the fact that we met up on Valentine's day was an accident: "You free this week? Cool, is Wednesday good? Sure, Thursday's fine."), and started meeting on a more regular basis around then. By the end of May we were officially a couple, and a year and a half after that (including many months apart and a separate trip to Kyrgyzstan to visit her) she was able to make it to America and we got married.

	=== Learning Kyrgyz in Kyrgyzstan ===		=== Learning Kyrgyz in Kyrgyzstan ===

Firespeaker: /* Library access */

2020-10-02T17:04:00Z

Library access

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:04, 2 October 2020
Line 103:		Line 103:
	I headed out a little discouraged, only to find Thatcher running up the stairs as the Guardian of the Stairwell shouted after him. I told him it was time to go, and we headed back down the stairs and dealt with the guardlady. After what amounted to apologising for "misunderstanding" her waving her arms at Thatcher, I turned in my daypass in exchange for my passport, and we headed out. We'd just made it out the door when a girl ran out of the library and introduced herself to me. I'd noticed her sitting right by the desk where I'd asked about these resources on Kyrgyz dialects, and she, along with everyone else in that room, had been paying very close attention as I talked with the librarian. She explained to me that the librarians at this library didn't like to go digging in the archives to get books out for people—even for her, who frequently managed to convince them to—and that I'd have better luck at the Academy of Sciences. She offered to take me there and help me find what I was after, and mentioned that she knew some other sources I could look for, since she'd taken a class on Kyrgyz dialects. I made sure Thatcher could find his way back to my place, and headed off with her to the Academy of Sciences.		I headed out a little discouraged, only to find Thatcher running up the stairs as the Guardian of the Stairwell shouted after him. I told him it was time to go, and we headed back down the stairs and dealt with the guardlady. After what amounted to apologising for "misunderstanding" her waving her arms at Thatcher, I turned in my daypass in exchange for my passport, and we headed out. We'd just made it out the door when a girl ran out of the library and introduced herself to me. I'd noticed her sitting right by the desk where I'd asked about these resources on Kyrgyz dialects, and she, along with everyone else in that room, had been paying very close attention as I talked with the librarian. She explained to me that the librarians at this library didn't like to go digging in the archives to get books out for people—even for her, who frequently managed to convince them to—and that I'd have better luck at the Academy of Sciences. She offered to take me there and help me find what I was after, and mentioned that she knew some other sources I could look for, since she'd taken a class on Kyrgyz dialects. I made sure Thatcher could find his way back to my place, and headed off with her to the Academy of Sciences.

	After alternatingly waiting for and not managing to catch trolleybuses and [[w:Marshrutka\|marshrutkas]], we ended up just walking. It was cold, and maybe a little snowy, and at a pace I didn't set (much slower), we got there in a little over half an hour, but talked the whole way. It turned out that they were closing right as we got there, so we headed back the direction we'd come. We stopped outside the National University (I didn't know it yet, but she lived near there) and talked for a good long while before parting ways to head home. Shortly after that we met a few times and talked about language and other such things, and she lent me her notes and other materials from her Kyrgyz dialectology class to copy. We ended up going out for Valentine's day (~~she tricked me into it~~: "You free this week? Cool, is Wednesday good? Sure, Thursday's fine."), and started meeting on a more regular basis around then. By the end of May we were officially a couple, and a year and a half after that (including many months apart and a separate trip to Kyrgyzstan to visit her) she was able to make it to America and we got married.		After alternatingly waiting for and not managing to catch trolleybuses and [[w:Marshrutka\|marshrutkas]], we ended up just walking. It was cold, and maybe a little snowy, and at a pace I didn't set (much slower), we got there in a little over half an hour, but talked the whole way. It turned out that they were closing right as we got there, so we headed back the direction we'd come. We stopped outside the National University (I didn't know it yet, but she lived near there) and talked for a good long while before parting ways to head home. Shortly after that we met a few times and talked about language and other such things, and she lent me her notes and other materials from her Kyrgyz dialectology class to copy. We ended up going out for Valentine's day ((the fact that we met up on Valentine's day was an accident: "You free this week? Cool, is Wednesday good? Sure, Thursday's fine."), and started meeting on a more regular basis around then. By the end of May we were officially a couple, and a year and a half after that (including many months apart and a separate trip to Kyrgyzstan to visit her) she was able to make it to America and we got married.

	=== Learning Kyrgyz in Kyrgyzstan ===		=== Learning Kyrgyz in Kyrgyzstan ===

Firespeaker: /* Library access */

2020-10-02T16:38:30Z

Library access

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:38, 2 October 2020
Line 103:		Line 103:
	I headed out a little discouraged, only to find Thatcher running up the stairs as the Guardian of the Stairwell shouted after him. I told him it was time to go, and we headed back down the stairs and dealt with the guardlady. After what amounted to apologising for "misunderstanding" her waving her arms at Thatcher, I turned in my daypass in exchange for my passport, and we headed out. We'd just made it out the door when a girl ran out of the library and introduced herself to me. I'd noticed her sitting right by the desk where I'd asked about these resources on Kyrgyz dialects, and she, along with everyone else in that room, had been paying very close attention as I talked with the librarian. She explained to me that the librarians at this library didn't like to go digging in the archives to get books out for people—even for her, who frequently managed to convince them to—and that I'd have better luck at the Academy of Sciences. She offered to take me there and help me find what I was after, and mentioned that she knew some other sources I could look for, since she'd taken a class on Kyrgyz dialects. I made sure Thatcher could find his way back to my place, and headed off with her to the Academy of Sciences.		I headed out a little discouraged, only to find Thatcher running up the stairs as the Guardian of the Stairwell shouted after him. I told him it was time to go, and we headed back down the stairs and dealt with the guardlady. After what amounted to apologising for "misunderstanding" her waving her arms at Thatcher, I turned in my daypass in exchange for my passport, and we headed out. We'd just made it out the door when a girl ran out of the library and introduced herself to me. I'd noticed her sitting right by the desk where I'd asked about these resources on Kyrgyz dialects, and she, along with everyone else in that room, had been paying very close attention as I talked with the librarian. She explained to me that the librarians at this library didn't like to go digging in the archives to get books out for people—even for her, who frequently managed to convince them to—and that I'd have better luck at the Academy of Sciences. She offered to take me there and help me find what I was after, and mentioned that she knew some other sources I could look for, since she'd taken a class on Kyrgyz dialects. I made sure Thatcher could find his way back to my place, and headed off with her to the Academy of Sciences.

	After alternatingly waiting for and not managing to catch trolleybuses and [[w:Marshrutka\|marshrutkas]], we ended up just walking. It was cold, and maybe a little snowy, and at a pace I didn't set (much slower), we got there in a little over half an hour, but talked the whole way. It turned out that they were closing right as we got there, so we headed back the direction we'd come. We stopped outside the National University (I didn't know it yet, but she lived near there) and talked for a good long while before parting ways to head home. Shortly after that we met a few times and talked about language and other such things, and she lent me her notes and other materials from her Kyrgyz dialectology class to copy. We ended up going out for Valentine's day (she tricked me into it: "You free this week? Cool, is Wednesday good? Sure, Thursday's fine."), and started meeting on a more regular basis around then. By the end of May we were officially a couple, and a year and a half after that (including many months apart and a separate trip to Kyrgyzstan to visit her) ~~Tolgonay~~ was able to make it to America and we got married.		After alternatingly waiting for and not managing to catch trolleybuses and [[w:Marshrutka\|marshrutkas]], we ended up just walking. It was cold, and maybe a little snowy, and at a pace I didn't set (much slower), we got there in a little over half an hour, but talked the whole way. It turned out that they were closing right as we got there, so we headed back the direction we'd come. We stopped outside the National University (I didn't know it yet, but she lived near there) and talked for a good long while before parting ways to head home. Shortly after that we met a few times and talked about language and other such things, and she lent me her notes and other materials from her Kyrgyz dialectology class to copy. We ended up going out for Valentine's day (she tricked me into it: "You free this week? Cool, is Wednesday good? Sure, Thursday's fine."), and started meeting on a more regular basis around then. By the end of May we were officially a couple, and a year and a half after that (including many months apart and a separate trip to Kyrgyzstan to visit her) she was able to make it to America and we got married.

	=== Learning Kyrgyz in Kyrgyzstan ===		=== Learning Kyrgyz in Kyrgyzstan ===

Firespeaker: /* Krippes's "Kyrgyz"-English dictionary */

2020-10-01T03:31:09Z

Krippes's "Kyrgyz"-English dictionary

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:31, 1 October 2020
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	[[Image:Krippes.png\|thumb\|200px\|right\|The front cover of Krippes's dictionary, depicting a Buryat guy chasing a Ukrainian girl]]		[[Image:Krippes.png\|thumb\|200px\|right\|The front cover of Krippes's dictionary, depicting a Buryat guy chasing a Ukrainian girl]]

	~~The~~ only Kyrgyz-English/English-Kyrgyz dictionary readily available outside of Kyrgyzstan is by Karl Krippes. It's hard to know where to begin in reviewing this dictionary.		[When this was originally written,] the only Kyrgyz-English/English-Kyrgyz dictionary readily available outside of Kyrgyzstan is by Karl Krippes. It's hard to know where to begin in reviewing this dictionary.

	Let's start with the cover. It would appear that an attempt was made to depict the traditional sport [[w:Kyz kuu\|qyz quumay]]. However, even if one is not familiar with the Kyrgyz, one notices that it's very unlikely that both of the riders in this piece of art are Kyrgyz. An examination of their dress suggests that the guy ~~is likely~~ Buryat and the girl might be Ukrainian. The steppe-land they're galloping across could theoretically be in Kyrgyzstan, but it seems unlikely given the characters.		Let's start with the cover. It would appear that an attempt was made to depict the traditional sport [[w:Kyz kuu\|qyz quumay]]. However, even if one is not familiar with the Kyrgyz, one notices that it's very unlikely that both of the riders in this piece of art are Kyrgyz. An examination of their dress suggests that the guy might be Buryat and the girl might be Ukrainian. The steppe-land they're galloping across could theoretically be in Kyrgyzstan, but it seems unlikely given the characters.

	Opening the cover, we find that the dictionary is an abridgement of Yudakhin's Kyrgyz-Russian dictionary. Wait, so he ''translated'' the dictionary?? Isn't the first rule of dictionary-making to '''not translate a dictionary''' at all costs?		Opening the cover, we find that the dictionary is an abridgement of Yudakhin's Kyrgyz-Russian dictionary. Wait, so he ''translated'' the dictionary?? Isn't the first rule of dictionary-making to '''not translate a dictionary''' at all costs?

Firespeaker: /* Kyrgyz as an endangered language */

2020-09-30T21:12:51Z

Kyrgyz as an endangered language

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:12, 30 September 2020
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	Something that linguists try to "save" by documenting an endangered language is its ways of classifying the world. That is, linguists are interested in the speakers' folk-taxonomies of things like flora and fauna, and also things like verbs of motion, or the linguistic conceptualisation of time. These add to the knowledge of the diversity of what the possible range for things like this is, and inevitably can help linguists to better understand Language.		Something that linguists try to "save" by documenting an endangered language is its ways of classifying the world. That is, linguists are interested in the speakers' folk-taxonomies of things like flora and fauna, and also things like verbs of motion, or the linguistic conceptualisation of time. These add to the knowledge of the diversity of what the possible range for things like this is, and inevitably can help linguists to better understand Language.

	As with any language which is the product of a complex history of contact and interaction with other languages, Kyrgyz often has as many as four or five words for the same (or similar) thing(s). Sometimes these words have nearly identical meaning, and sometimes they represent a range of similar meanings. In this way, the situation is much like English. However, with the modern dominance of Russian in the lives of Kyrgyz speakers, many people simply turn to the sometimes "easier" Russian ways of expressing things. By doing this en-masse, some of the finer distinctions in Kyrgyz are lost (see the [http://dogonlanguages.org/movies/index.cfm Dogon movies] for examples of the sort of thing I have in mind).		As with any language which is the product of a complex history of contact and interaction with other languages, Kyrgyz often has as many as four or five words for the same (or similar) thing(s). Sometimes these words have nearly identical meaning, and sometimes they represent a range of similar meanings. In this way, the situation is much like English. However, with the modern dominance of Russian in the lives of Kyrgyz speakers, many people simply turn to the sometimes "easier" Russian ways of expressing things, or calque Russian structures. By doing this ''en masse'', some of the finer distinctions in Kyrgyz are lost (see the [http://dogonlanguages.org/movies/index.cfm Dogon movies site] for examples of the sort of thing I have in mind).

	In this sense, some of the linguistic "richness" in Kyrgyz is being lost. This goes hand-in-hand with the loss of related cultural knowledge.		In this sense, some of the linguistic "richness" in Kyrgyz is being lost. This goes hand-in-hand with the loss of related cultural knowledge. This is not to say that there's anything wrong with language change, but just to highlight that documenting ''any'' language at any time can be an act of linguistic preservation.

	=== Bilingualism, Domains ===		=== Bilingualism, Domains ===

Firespeaker: /* Learning Kyrgyz in Kyrgyzstan */

2020-09-30T21:09:54Z

Learning Kyrgyz in Kyrgyzstan

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:09, 30 September 2020
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	London School gives its students (at least foreign ones) frequent questionnaires (once every week or two) for them to rate the quality of their teachers and to make any complaints they feel are necessary. The first few of these I received, I basically said I was satisfied with the instruction I was receiving. Kenje eje, however, didn't believe me, and encouraged me to mention anything I thought was a problem. After more time there, when I worked out what the issues were (including things mentioned here, but also things like how the high ceilings caused terrible echoing in the classrooms, making it hard to hear my teachers clearly), I started putting it all down. This seemed to make them happy, but after a few questionnaires like this they got overwhelmed. I had been working on some of the pedagogical issues with my teachers, and at first was uncomfortable "going over their heads" (an idea that was irrelevant to them), but decided to let the administration (Kenje eje) know what I was thinking. Before Nurzat eje left, I'd had her more or less [covertly] retrained to be more of a consultant than a teacher; it took a while to [covertly] train Aelita eje in this way too.		London School gives its students (at least foreign ones) frequent questionnaires (once every week or two) for them to rate the quality of their teachers and to make any complaints they feel are necessary. The first few of these I received, I basically said I was satisfied with the instruction I was receiving. Kenje eje, however, didn't believe me, and encouraged me to mention anything I thought was a problem. After more time there, when I worked out what the issues were (including things mentioned here, but also things like how the high ceilings caused terrible echoing in the classrooms, making it hard to hear my teachers clearly), I started putting it all down. This seemed to make them happy, but after a few questionnaires like this they got overwhelmed. I had been working on some of the pedagogical issues with my teachers, and at first was uncomfortable "going over their heads" (an idea that was irrelevant to them), but decided to let the administration (Kenje eje) know what I was thinking. Before Nurzat eje left, I'd had her more or less [covertly] retrained to be more of a consultant than a teacher; it took a while to [covertly] train Aelita eje in this way too.

	'''In the end''', being forced to speak Kyrgyz for three hours every morning was enough to improve my skills a lot. Also, it helped to be exposed to vocabulary and grammar and to have people available who were paid to answer questions for me about the language. However, beyond the bare bones, these teachers didn't know how to teach me to actually learn the language, largely due to their ~~understanding~~ that learning a language consists of memorising vocabulary and morpho-phonology.		'''In the end''', being forced to speak Kyrgyz for three hours every morning was enough to improve my skills a lot. Also, it helped to be exposed to vocabulary and grammar and to have people available who were paid to answer questions for me about the language. However, beyond the bare bones, these teachers didn't know how to teach me to actually learn the language, largely due to their misconception that learning a language consists of memorising vocabulary and morpho-phonology.

	== The state of research on Kyrgyz outside of Kyrgyzstan ==		== The state of research on Kyrgyz outside of Kyrgyzstan ==

Firespeaker: /* Learning Kyrgyz in Kyrgyzstan */

2020-09-30T21:08:07Z

Learning Kyrgyz in Kyrgyzstan

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:08, 30 September 2020
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	Nurzat led me through the grammar-book "grammar" about Kyrgyz. It was good, because I got a chance to clearly work out the morpho-phonological differences between Kazakh and Kyrgyz, and basically learned everything in this class through its differences with Kazakh. But their concept of grammar is just the morpho-phonology. They figure that once you master that and some vocabulary then you know the language. However, it's not that easy, since (among other things) there are some very rich semantic properties of both the morpho-syntax (e.g., complex evidentiality and aspect systems) and the vocabulary (sometimes fine distinctions in meaning that English or Russian doesn't have, or the lack of fine distinctions that English or Russian has). At the end of December, Nurzat left to work on her dissertation, and they hired Aelita to replace her. She helped me finish up my adventure through the morphology of Kyrgyz, and many of our classes turned into me drilling her on semantic distinctions between various morphemes (especially things like evidentiality, aspect of conditionals, verbs for being upset, etc). Based on the methods I used to learn at that point, my teachers essentially became my language consultants, and the line between classes and fieldwork sessions was blurred immensely.		Nurzat led me through the grammar-book "grammar" about Kyrgyz. It was good, because I got a chance to clearly work out the morpho-phonological differences between Kazakh and Kyrgyz, and basically learned everything in this class through its differences with Kazakh. But their concept of grammar is just the morpho-phonology. They figure that once you master that and some vocabulary then you know the language. However, it's not that easy, since (among other things) there are some very rich semantic properties of both the morpho-syntax (e.g., complex evidentiality and aspect systems) and the vocabulary (sometimes fine distinctions in meaning that English or Russian doesn't have, or the lack of fine distinctions that English or Russian has). At the end of December, Nurzat left to work on her dissertation, and they hired Aelita to replace her. She helped me finish up my adventure through the morphology of Kyrgyz, and many of our classes turned into me drilling her on semantic distinctions between various morphemes (especially things like evidentiality, aspect of conditionals, verbs for being upset, etc). Based on the methods I used to learn at that point, my teachers essentially became my language consultants, and the line between classes and fieldwork sessions was blurred immensely.

	Lazat's "conversation" class turned out to be more of a reading class, and I had the same problems in that class working out what words meant. One problem was that it's one thing to understand the meaning of a word in a text, and quite another to understand the full range of meanings it can carry. I was also not being asked to ''produce'' Kyrgyz (e.g., write in it), which is what really generates ability to wield a language. Lazat gave me a hard time after a month or two, saying that my Kazakh was getting very good, but that my Kyrgyz still needed work. She didn't qualify this at the time, but I realised a large part of it was my accent, which I finally decided to ~~worked~~ on. That was the point at which my mind really started keeping the two languages separate, and about the time that my Kyrgyz started improving independently of my Kazakh. Later, I found my Kazakh to have improved to about the level of my Kyrgyz at that point, and only a little further progress in Kazakh came for free with Kyrgyz.		Lazat's "conversation" class turned out to be more of a reading class, and I had the same problems in that class working out what words meant. One problem was that it's one thing to understand the meaning of a word in a text, and quite another to understand the full range of meanings it can carry. I was also not being asked to ''produce'' Kyrgyz (e.g., write in it), which is what really generates ability to wield a language. Lazat gave me a hard time after a month or two, saying that my Kazakh was getting very good, but that my Kyrgyz still needed work. She didn't qualify this at the time, but I realised a large part of it was my accent, which I finally decided to work on. That was the point at which my mind really started keeping the two languages separate, and about the time that my Kyrgyz started improving independently of my Kazakh. Later, I found my Kazakh to have improved to about the level of my Kyrgyz at that point, and only a little further progress in Kazakh came for free with Kyrgyz.

	London School gives its students (at least foreign ones) frequent questionnaires (once every week or two) for them to rate the quality of their teachers and to make any complaints they feel are necessary. The first few of these I received, I basically said I was satisfied with the instruction I was receiving. Kenje eje, however, didn't believe me, and encouraged me to mention anything I thought was a problem. After more time there, when I worked out what the issues were (including things mentioned here, but also things like how the high ceilings caused terrible echoing in the classrooms, making it hard to hear my teachers clearly), I started putting it all down. This seemed to make them happy, but after a few questionnaires like this they got overwhelmed. I had been working on some of the pedagogical issues with my teachers, and at first was uncomfortable "going over their heads" (an idea that was irrelevant to them), but decided to let the administration (Kenje eje) know what I was thinking. Before Nurzat eje left, I'd had her more or less [covertly] retrained to be more of a consultant than a teacher; it took a while to [covertly] train Aelita eje in this way too.		London School gives its students (at least foreign ones) frequent questionnaires (once every week or two) for them to rate the quality of their teachers and to make any complaints they feel are necessary. The first few of these I received, I basically said I was satisfied with the instruction I was receiving. Kenje eje, however, didn't believe me, and encouraged me to mention anything I thought was a problem. After more time there, when I worked out what the issues were (including things mentioned here, but also things like how the high ceilings caused terrible echoing in the classrooms, making it hard to hear my teachers clearly), I started putting it all down. This seemed to make them happy, but after a few questionnaires like this they got overwhelmed. I had been working on some of the pedagogical issues with my teachers, and at first was uncomfortable "going over their heads" (an idea that was irrelevant to them), but decided to let the administration (Kenje eje) know what I was thinking. Before Nurzat eje left, I'd had her more or less [covertly] retrained to be more of a consultant than a teacher; it took a while to [covertly] train Aelita eje in this way too.

Firespeaker: /* Learning Kyrgyz in Kyrgyzstan */

2020-09-30T21:07:26Z

Learning Kyrgyz in Kyrgyzstan

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:07, 30 September 2020
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	[[Image:NurzatEje.jpg\|thumb\|200px\|right\|A staged picture of Nurzat eje teaching me Kyrgyz after class finished on the last day of classes in December, 2007 (the last day I saw her), taken by Kenje eje for the London School's website.]]		[[Image:NurzatEje.jpg\|thumb\|200px\|right\|A staged picture of Nurzat eje teaching me Kyrgyz after class finished on the last day of classes in December, 2007 (the last day I saw her), taken by Kenje eje for the London School's website.]]
	Nurzat led me through the grammar-book "grammar" about Kyrgyz. It was good, because I got a chance to clearly work out the morpho-phonological differences between Kazakh and Kyrgyz, and basically learned everything in this class through its differences with Kazakh. But their concept of grammar is just the morpho-phonology. They figure that once you master that and some vocabulary then you know the language. However, it's not that easy, since (among other things) there are some very rich semantic properties of both the morpho-syntax (e.g., complex evidentiality and aspect systems) and the vocabulary (sometimes fine distinctions in meaning that English or Russian doesn't have, or the lack of fine distinctions that English or Russian has). At the end of December, Nurzat left to work on her dissertation, and they hired Aelita to replace her. She helped me finish up my adventure through the morphology of Kyrgyz, and many of our classes turned into me drilling her on semantic distinctions between various morphemes (especially things like evidentiality, aspect of conditionals, verbs for being upset, etc). Based on the methods I used to learn at that point, my teachers essentially became my language ~~informants~~, and the line between classes and fieldwork sessions was blurred immensely.		Nurzat led me through the grammar-book "grammar" about Kyrgyz. It was good, because I got a chance to clearly work out the morpho-phonological differences between Kazakh and Kyrgyz, and basically learned everything in this class through its differences with Kazakh. But their concept of grammar is just the morpho-phonology. They figure that once you master that and some vocabulary then you know the language. However, it's not that easy, since (among other things) there are some very rich semantic properties of both the morpho-syntax (e.g., complex evidentiality and aspect systems) and the vocabulary (sometimes fine distinctions in meaning that English or Russian doesn't have, or the lack of fine distinctions that English or Russian has). At the end of December, Nurzat left to work on her dissertation, and they hired Aelita to replace her. She helped me finish up my adventure through the morphology of Kyrgyz, and many of our classes turned into me drilling her on semantic distinctions between various morphemes (especially things like evidentiality, aspect of conditionals, verbs for being upset, etc). Based on the methods I used to learn at that point, my teachers essentially became my language consultants, and the line between classes and fieldwork sessions was blurred immensely.

	Lazat's "conversation" class turned out to be more of a reading class, and I had the same problems in that class working out what words meant. One problem was that it's one thing to understand the meaning of a word in a text, and quite another to understand the full range of meanings it can carry. I was also not being asked to ''produce'' Kyrgyz (e.g., write in it), which is what really generates ability to wield a language. Lazat gave me a hard time after a month or two, saying that my Kazakh was getting very good, but that my Kyrgyz still needed work. She didn't qualify this at the time, but I realised a large part of it was my accent, which I finally decided to worked on. That was the point at which my mind really started keeping the two languages separate, and about the time that my Kyrgyz started improving independently of my Kazakh. Later, I found my Kazakh to have improved to about the level of my Kyrgyz at that point, and only a little further progress in Kazakh came for free with Kyrgyz.		Lazat's "conversation" class turned out to be more of a reading class, and I had the same problems in that class working out what words meant. One problem was that it's one thing to understand the meaning of a word in a text, and quite another to understand the full range of meanings it can carry. I was also not being asked to ''produce'' Kyrgyz (e.g., write in it), which is what really generates ability to wield a language. Lazat gave me a hard time after a month or two, saying that my Kazakh was getting very good, but that my Kyrgyz still needed work. She didn't qualify this at the time, but I realised a large part of it was my accent, which I finally decided to worked on. That was the point at which my mind really started keeping the two languages separate, and about the time that my Kyrgyz started improving independently of my Kazakh. Later, I found my Kazakh to have improved to about the level of my Kyrgyz at that point, and only a little further progress in Kazakh came for free with Kyrgyz.

	London School gives its students (at least foreign ones) frequent questionnaires (once every week or two) for them to rate the quality of their teachers and to make any complaints they feel are necessary. The first few of these I received, I basically said I was satisfied with the instruction I was receiving. Kenje eje, however, didn't believe me, and encouraged me to mention anything I thought was a problem. After more time there, when I worked out what the issues were (including things mentioned here, but also things like how the high ceilings caused terrible echoing in the classrooms, making it hard to hear my teachers clearly), I started putting it all down. This seemed to make them happy, but after a few questionnaires like this they got overwhelmed. I had been working on some of the pedagogical issues with my teachers, and at first was uncomfortable "going over their heads" (an idea that was irrelevant to them), but decided to let the administration (Kenje eje) know what I was thinking. Before Nurzat eje left, I'd had her more or less [covertly] retrained to be more of ~~an informant~~ than a teacher; it took a while to [covertly] train Aelita eje in this way too.		London School gives its students (at least foreign ones) frequent questionnaires (once every week or two) for them to rate the quality of their teachers and to make any complaints they feel are necessary. The first few of these I received, I basically said I was satisfied with the instruction I was receiving. Kenje eje, however, didn't believe me, and encouraged me to mention anything I thought was a problem. After more time there, when I worked out what the issues were (including things mentioned here, but also things like how the high ceilings caused terrible echoing in the classrooms, making it hard to hear my teachers clearly), I started putting it all down. This seemed to make them happy, but after a few questionnaires like this they got overwhelmed. I had been working on some of the pedagogical issues with my teachers, and at first was uncomfortable "going over their heads" (an idea that was irrelevant to them), but decided to let the administration (Kenje eje) know what I was thinking. Before Nurzat eje left, I'd had her more or less [covertly] retrained to be more of a consultant than a teacher; it took a while to [covertly] train Aelita eje in this way too.

	'''In the end''', being forced to speak Kyrgyz for three hours every morning was enough to improve my skills a lot. Also, it helped to be exposed to vocabulary and grammar and to have people available who were paid to answer questions for me about the language. However, beyond the bare bones, these teachers didn't know how to teach me to actually learn the language, largely due to their understanding that learning a language consists of memorising vocabulary and morpho-phonology.		'''In the end''', being forced to speak Kyrgyz for three hours every morning was enough to improve my skills a lot. Also, it helped to be exposed to vocabulary and grammar and to have people available who were paid to answer questions for me about the language. However, beyond the bare bones, these teachers didn't know how to teach me to actually learn the language, largely due to their understanding that learning a language consists of memorising vocabulary and morpho-phonology.

Firespeaker: /* Learning Kyrgyz in Kyrgyzstan */

2020-09-30T21:06:29Z

Learning Kyrgyz in Kyrgyzstan

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:06, 30 September 2020
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	[[Image:NurzatEje.jpg\|thumb\|200px\|right\|A staged picture of Nurzat eje teaching me Kyrgyz after class finished on the last day of classes in December, 2007 (the last day I saw her), taken by Kenje eje for the London School's website.]]		[[Image:NurzatEje.jpg\|thumb\|200px\|right\|A staged picture of Nurzat eje teaching me Kyrgyz after class finished on the last day of classes in December, 2007 (the last day I saw her), taken by Kenje eje for the London School's website.]]
	Nurzat led me through the grammar-book "grammar" about Kyrgyz. It was good, because I got a chance to clearly work out the morpho-phonological differences between Kazakh and Kyrgyz, and basically learned everything in this class through its differences with Kazakh. But their concept of grammar is just the morpho-phonology. They figure that once you master that and some vocabulary then you know the language. However, it's not that easy, since there are some very rich semantic properties of both the morpho-syntax (e.g., complex evidentiality and aspect systems) and the vocabulary (sometimes fine distinctions in meaning that English or Russian doesn't have, or the lack of fine distinctions that English or Russian has). At the end of December, Nurzat left to work on her dissertation, and they hired Aelita to replace her. She helped me finish up my adventure through the morphology of Kyrgyz, and many of our classes turned into me drilling her on semantic distinctions between various morphemes (especially things like evidentiality, aspect of conditionals, verbs for being upset, etc). Based on the methods I used to learn at that point, my teachers essentially became my language informants, and the line between classes and fieldwork sessions was blurred immensely.		Nurzat led me through the grammar-book "grammar" about Kyrgyz. It was good, because I got a chance to clearly work out the morpho-phonological differences between Kazakh and Kyrgyz, and basically learned everything in this class through its differences with Kazakh. But their concept of grammar is just the morpho-phonology. They figure that once you master that and some vocabulary then you know the language. However, it's not that easy, since (among other things) there are some very rich semantic properties of both the morpho-syntax (e.g., complex evidentiality and aspect systems) and the vocabulary (sometimes fine distinctions in meaning that English or Russian doesn't have, or the lack of fine distinctions that English or Russian has). At the end of December, Nurzat left to work on her dissertation, and they hired Aelita to replace her. She helped me finish up my adventure through the morphology of Kyrgyz, and many of our classes turned into me drilling her on semantic distinctions between various morphemes (especially things like evidentiality, aspect of conditionals, verbs for being upset, etc). Based on the methods I used to learn at that point, my teachers essentially became my language informants, and the line between classes and fieldwork sessions was blurred immensely.

	Lazat's "conversation" class turned out to be more of a reading class, and I had the same problems in that class working out what words meant. One problem was that it's one thing to understand the meaning of a word in a text, and quite another to understand the full range of meanings it can carry. I was also not being asked to ''produce'' Kyrgyz (e.g., write in it), which is what really generates ability to wield a language. Lazat gave me a hard time after a month or two, saying that my Kazakh was getting very good, but that my Kyrgyz still needed work. She didn't qualify this at the time, but I realised a large part of it was my accent, which I finally decided to worked on. That was the point at which my mind really started keeping the two languages separate, and about the time that my Kyrgyz started improving independently of my Kazakh. Later, I found my Kazakh to have improved to about the level of my Kyrgyz at that point, and only a little further progress in Kazakh came for free with Kyrgyz.		Lazat's "conversation" class turned out to be more of a reading class, and I had the same problems in that class working out what words meant. One problem was that it's one thing to understand the meaning of a word in a text, and quite another to understand the full range of meanings it can carry. I was also not being asked to ''produce'' Kyrgyz (e.g., write in it), which is what really generates ability to wield a language. Lazat gave me a hard time after a month or two, saying that my Kazakh was getting very good, but that my Kyrgyz still needed work. She didn't qualify this at the time, but I realised a large part of it was my accent, which I finally decided to worked on. That was the point at which my mind really started keeping the two languages separate, and about the time that my Kyrgyz started improving independently of my Kazakh. Later, I found my Kazakh to have improved to about the level of my Kyrgyz at that point, and only a little further progress in Kazakh came for free with Kyrgyz.

Firespeaker: /* Learning Kyrgyz in Kyrgyzstan */

2020-09-30T21:05:55Z

Learning Kyrgyz in Kyrgyzstan

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:05, 30 September 2020
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	One of the first things I did when I got to Bishkek (before I even had a place to live) was to register for Kyrgyz lessons at [http://tlsbi.com/ The London School]. I studied there from the very beginning of October until the end of March.		One of the first things I did when I got to Bishkek (before I even had a place to live) was to register for Kyrgyz lessons at [http://tlsbi.com/ The London School]. I studied there from the very beginning of October until the end of March.

	Before I went to Kyrgyzstan, I'd studied some Kazakh. I knew the morpho-phonology well and had a decent basic vocabulary, but couldn't speak very fluently. Because of this, and some very basic knowledge of some of the differences between Kazakh and Kyrgyz (mainly in terms of orthography), I apparently did very well on the placement exam (which included an oral element too).		Before I went to Kyrgyzstan, I'd studied some Kazakh (and before that, and to a lesser degree, Uzbek and Tatar). I knew the morpho-phonology of Kazakh well and had a decent basic vocabulary, but couldn't speak very fluently. Because of this, and some very basic knowledge of some of the differences between Kazakh and Kyrgyz (mainly in terms of orthography), I apparently did very well on the placement exam (which included an oral element too).

	So at that point, they didn't really know what to do with me. I managed to convince them that I didn't know Kyrgyz grammar very well, despite my placement test scores, and so they had Nurzat eje teach me grammar for two hours every day. They also put me with Lazat eje for an hour every day for conversation. This totaled three hours every day (during the week) of one-on-one Kyrgyz lessons.		So at that point, they didn't really know what to do with me. I managed to convince them that I didn't know Kyrgyz grammar very well, despite my placement test scores, and so they had Nurzat eje teach me grammar for two hours every day. They also put me with Lazat eje for an hour every day for conversation. This totaled three hours every day (during the week) of one-on-one Kyrgyz lessons.